Can one apply for a B visa to USA just to avoid the waiver-of-rights inherent in the VWP? [closed]
Background 1. It is a condition for applying for admission to the US under the Visa Waiver Program that one waives one's right to appeal or contest any rejection by a border official. (In practice, air travelers are not asked to affirmatively waive these rights; I think it is in the small print of the ESTA application somewhere).
Background 2. Various report (e.g. here) state that US consulates are quite reluctant to issue B-1/B-2 visas to VWP nationals when it appears their travel purpose fits under the VWP.
Question. Suppose you apply for a visa and outright tell the consular officer that your reason for wanting a visa is to preserve your right to an immigration judge in case you're refused entry. Have you then effectively killed your application? Are there reports of this succeeding (surely someone must have tried just out of general boundary-pushing assitude)? Are there rules stating explicitly that such a desire is an acceptable reason to apply for a visa?
Never mind that it appears to be a stupidly pointless move for most bona fide tourists or business visitors to insist on full removal proceedings if rejected at the border -- since the law states that these rights must be waived instead of just declaring that you don't have them in the first place, the system should at least pretend that it's rational to want to preserve them, shouldn't it?
usa b1-b2-visas us-visa-waiver-program
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
closed as primarily opinion-based by George Y., David Richerby, Rory Alsop, Gayot Fow, Crazydre Feb 22 '17 at 13:46
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
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show 2 more comments
Background 1. It is a condition for applying for admission to the US under the Visa Waiver Program that one waives one's right to appeal or contest any rejection by a border official. (In practice, air travelers are not asked to affirmatively waive these rights; I think it is in the small print of the ESTA application somewhere).
Background 2. Various report (e.g. here) state that US consulates are quite reluctant to issue B-1/B-2 visas to VWP nationals when it appears their travel purpose fits under the VWP.
Question. Suppose you apply for a visa and outright tell the consular officer that your reason for wanting a visa is to preserve your right to an immigration judge in case you're refused entry. Have you then effectively killed your application? Are there reports of this succeeding (surely someone must have tried just out of general boundary-pushing assitude)? Are there rules stating explicitly that such a desire is an acceptable reason to apply for a visa?
Never mind that it appears to be a stupidly pointless move for most bona fide tourists or business visitors to insist on full removal proceedings if rejected at the border -- since the law states that these rights must be waived instead of just declaring that you don't have them in the first place, the system should at least pretend that it's rational to want to preserve them, shouldn't it?
usa b1-b2-visas us-visa-waiver-program
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
closed as primarily opinion-based by George Y., David Richerby, Rory Alsop, Gayot Fow, Crazydre Feb 22 '17 at 13:46
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
7
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
3
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
2
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
4
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
2
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12
|
show 2 more comments
Background 1. It is a condition for applying for admission to the US under the Visa Waiver Program that one waives one's right to appeal or contest any rejection by a border official. (In practice, air travelers are not asked to affirmatively waive these rights; I think it is in the small print of the ESTA application somewhere).
Background 2. Various report (e.g. here) state that US consulates are quite reluctant to issue B-1/B-2 visas to VWP nationals when it appears their travel purpose fits under the VWP.
Question. Suppose you apply for a visa and outright tell the consular officer that your reason for wanting a visa is to preserve your right to an immigration judge in case you're refused entry. Have you then effectively killed your application? Are there reports of this succeeding (surely someone must have tried just out of general boundary-pushing assitude)? Are there rules stating explicitly that such a desire is an acceptable reason to apply for a visa?
Never mind that it appears to be a stupidly pointless move for most bona fide tourists or business visitors to insist on full removal proceedings if rejected at the border -- since the law states that these rights must be waived instead of just declaring that you don't have them in the first place, the system should at least pretend that it's rational to want to preserve them, shouldn't it?
usa b1-b2-visas us-visa-waiver-program
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
Background 1. It is a condition for applying for admission to the US under the Visa Waiver Program that one waives one's right to appeal or contest any rejection by a border official. (In practice, air travelers are not asked to affirmatively waive these rights; I think it is in the small print of the ESTA application somewhere).
Background 2. Various report (e.g. here) state that US consulates are quite reluctant to issue B-1/B-2 visas to VWP nationals when it appears their travel purpose fits under the VWP.
Question. Suppose you apply for a visa and outright tell the consular officer that your reason for wanting a visa is to preserve your right to an immigration judge in case you're refused entry. Have you then effectively killed your application? Are there reports of this succeeding (surely someone must have tried just out of general boundary-pushing assitude)? Are there rules stating explicitly that such a desire is an acceptable reason to apply for a visa?
Never mind that it appears to be a stupidly pointless move for most bona fide tourists or business visitors to insist on full removal proceedings if rejected at the border -- since the law states that these rights must be waived instead of just declaring that you don't have them in the first place, the system should at least pretend that it's rational to want to preserve them, shouldn't it?
usa b1-b2-visas us-visa-waiver-program
usa b1-b2-visas us-visa-waiver-program
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
edited Feb 22 '17 at 13:35
JoErNanO♦
43.9k12136223
43.9k12136223
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
asked Jan 2 '17 at 19:49
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
41.4k7102161
41.4k7102161
closed as primarily opinion-based by George Y., David Richerby, Rory Alsop, Gayot Fow, Crazydre Feb 22 '17 at 13:46
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
closed as primarily opinion-based by George Y., David Richerby, Rory Alsop, Gayot Fow, Crazydre Feb 22 '17 at 13:46
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
7
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
3
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
2
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
4
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
2
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12
|
show 2 more comments
7
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
3
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
2
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
4
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
2
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12
7
7
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
3
3
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
2
2
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
4
4
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
2
2
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12
|
show 2 more comments
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7
You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Also likely POB. IMO yes you can and no, it won't the kill application (unless near the 'margin').
– pnuts
Jan 2 '17 at 23:34
3
@pnuts emphasis on should, not must. The question is narrow but not simplistic and is unusual and interesting - exactly what we are looking for on this site!
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:14
2
@pnuts I was making my own emphasis. I was pointing out that if "practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face" were the only questions allowed here, then the Don't Ask page would be expected to say "You must only ask..." rather than "You should only ask...."
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:31
4
@pnuts one way that the question could be answered would be for someone to find some official USCIS policy document (a lot of them are online), immigration case law, or statute that covers this. For example, if an official US Government policy says "Consular officers shall not treat visa applications from VWP-eligible persons as a red flag for further investigation", I would consider that to answer the question even though everyone knows that not every official is going to do that perfectly 100% of the time.
– Robert Columbia
Jan 3 '17 at 3:33
2
@Robert "exactly what we are looking for on this site!" Who is "we"?
– fkraiem
Jan 21 '17 at 14:12