Why do trains in the UK start running so late on Sunday morning?









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On a Sunday, the first train from Lancaster to Manchester departs at 11:24 (this is the Furness line). On Saturdays this is at 6:24. To Birmingham, the first train on Saturdays is 6:58, on Sundays 11:58. To Glasgow, Saturdays 6:64, Sundays 11:54. The pattern is true elsewhere as well: from Blackpool, first Saturday train departs 5:18, first Sunday train 11:21. Boston, Saturdays 6:13, Sundays 12:13. Lincoln, Saturdays 5:26, Sundays 11:05. It's not true everywhere, but it is in many places. For the rest of the day, the Sunday frequency is not much less than the Saturday frequency.



I've taken the first Sunday train from Lancaster to Manchester twice. Both times, the train was extremely busy. On neither occasion could I find a place to sit. On one occasion, people were left behind on the platform as they could not board the overfull train. Although a sample size of two is small, I will assume this train is always busy.



Considering that demand clearly outstrips supply on Sunday morning, why do trains start running so late?










share|improve this question



















  • 6




    Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
    – Nate Eldredge
    May 10 '17 at 19:43










  • Encourage you to attend your local church?
    – Andrew Lazarus
    May 10 '17 at 23:18










  • ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
    – Gayot Fow
    May 10 '17 at 23:54






  • 1




    Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
    – skifans
    May 11 '17 at 7:07







  • 1




    Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
    – DaveP
    May 16 '17 at 13:32















up vote
7
down vote

favorite












On a Sunday, the first train from Lancaster to Manchester departs at 11:24 (this is the Furness line). On Saturdays this is at 6:24. To Birmingham, the first train on Saturdays is 6:58, on Sundays 11:58. To Glasgow, Saturdays 6:64, Sundays 11:54. The pattern is true elsewhere as well: from Blackpool, first Saturday train departs 5:18, first Sunday train 11:21. Boston, Saturdays 6:13, Sundays 12:13. Lincoln, Saturdays 5:26, Sundays 11:05. It's not true everywhere, but it is in many places. For the rest of the day, the Sunday frequency is not much less than the Saturday frequency.



I've taken the first Sunday train from Lancaster to Manchester twice. Both times, the train was extremely busy. On neither occasion could I find a place to sit. On one occasion, people were left behind on the platform as they could not board the overfull train. Although a sample size of two is small, I will assume this train is always busy.



Considering that demand clearly outstrips supply on Sunday morning, why do trains start running so late?










share|improve this question



















  • 6




    Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
    – Nate Eldredge
    May 10 '17 at 19:43










  • Encourage you to attend your local church?
    – Andrew Lazarus
    May 10 '17 at 23:18










  • ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
    – Gayot Fow
    May 10 '17 at 23:54






  • 1




    Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
    – skifans
    May 11 '17 at 7:07







  • 1




    Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
    – DaveP
    May 16 '17 at 13:32













up vote
7
down vote

favorite









up vote
7
down vote

favorite











On a Sunday, the first train from Lancaster to Manchester departs at 11:24 (this is the Furness line). On Saturdays this is at 6:24. To Birmingham, the first train on Saturdays is 6:58, on Sundays 11:58. To Glasgow, Saturdays 6:64, Sundays 11:54. The pattern is true elsewhere as well: from Blackpool, first Saturday train departs 5:18, first Sunday train 11:21. Boston, Saturdays 6:13, Sundays 12:13. Lincoln, Saturdays 5:26, Sundays 11:05. It's not true everywhere, but it is in many places. For the rest of the day, the Sunday frequency is not much less than the Saturday frequency.



I've taken the first Sunday train from Lancaster to Manchester twice. Both times, the train was extremely busy. On neither occasion could I find a place to sit. On one occasion, people were left behind on the platform as they could not board the overfull train. Although a sample size of two is small, I will assume this train is always busy.



Considering that demand clearly outstrips supply on Sunday morning, why do trains start running so late?










share|improve this question















On a Sunday, the first train from Lancaster to Manchester departs at 11:24 (this is the Furness line). On Saturdays this is at 6:24. To Birmingham, the first train on Saturdays is 6:58, on Sundays 11:58. To Glasgow, Saturdays 6:64, Sundays 11:54. The pattern is true elsewhere as well: from Blackpool, first Saturday train departs 5:18, first Sunday train 11:21. Boston, Saturdays 6:13, Sundays 12:13. Lincoln, Saturdays 5:26, Sundays 11:05. It's not true everywhere, but it is in many places. For the rest of the day, the Sunday frequency is not much less than the Saturday frequency.



I've taken the first Sunday train from Lancaster to Manchester twice. Both times, the train was extremely busy. On neither occasion could I find a place to sit. On one occasion, people were left behind on the platform as they could not board the overfull train. Although a sample size of two is small, I will assume this train is always busy.



Considering that demand clearly outstrips supply on Sunday morning, why do trains start running so late?







uk trains






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share|improve this question













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edited May 10 '17 at 19:38









mkennedy

6,0222541




6,0222541










asked May 10 '17 at 19:07









gerrit

27k988211




27k988211







  • 6




    Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
    – Nate Eldredge
    May 10 '17 at 19:43










  • Encourage you to attend your local church?
    – Andrew Lazarus
    May 10 '17 at 23:18










  • ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
    – Gayot Fow
    May 10 '17 at 23:54






  • 1




    Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
    – skifans
    May 11 '17 at 7:07







  • 1




    Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
    – DaveP
    May 16 '17 at 13:32













  • 6




    Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
    – Nate Eldredge
    May 10 '17 at 19:43










  • Encourage you to attend your local church?
    – Andrew Lazarus
    May 10 '17 at 23:18










  • ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
    – Gayot Fow
    May 10 '17 at 23:54






  • 1




    Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
    – skifans
    May 11 '17 at 7:07







  • 1




    Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
    – DaveP
    May 16 '17 at 13:32








6




6




Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
– Nate Eldredge
May 10 '17 at 19:43




Don't know about the UK, but some railroads need regular periods without service in order to perform maintenance. Sunday mornings might be the least bad option.
– Nate Eldredge
May 10 '17 at 19:43












Encourage you to attend your local church?
– Andrew Lazarus
May 10 '17 at 23:18




Encourage you to attend your local church?
– Andrew Lazarus
May 10 '17 at 23:18












ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
– Gayot Fow
May 10 '17 at 23:54




ping @Gagravarr the resident UK train specialist
– Gayot Fow
May 10 '17 at 23:54




1




1




Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
– skifans
May 11 '17 at 7:07





Just to make a quick point, for Lancaster to Manchester, from the 25th if June an earlier departure will run at 1022 (A: 1122) and for Lancaster to Birmingham, remember that Real-time trains only show direct services, the same new train will also allow an earlier Sunday service with a change at Wolverhampton. (Depart Lancaster: 1022. Arrive Preston: 1041. Depart Preston: 1117. Arrive Birmingham: 1250.)
– skifans
May 11 '17 at 7:07





1




1




Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
– DaveP
May 16 '17 at 13:32





Comment rather than an answer, but it is entirely historic. UK had the first passenger railways in the world and has always had a very much reduced timetable on Sundays. This strongly contrasts to the way the rest of Europe/the world does things. 'Blood, Iron & Gold' by Christian Wolmar expands somewhat on this.
– DaveP
May 16 '17 at 13:32











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
9
down vote













Since the question was "why", historically in the UK, driver's salaries were quite low, and British Rail ran the Sunday service on an overtime-only basis[1]. That is, only drivers who volunteered (for significant overtime pay) would drive trains on a Sunday. I believe this was similar for other grades of staff.



For this reason, British Rail would only timetable services where they could expect enough volunteers to make it viable to run it on a regular basis.



Nowadays, as many people know, drivers' salaries have gone up massively with privatisation, and in return some Train Operators in the UK have started making Sundays part of the official working week, and no longer voluntary. But the old timetables from the British Rail era often remain relatively unaltered, as many of these Sunday services are loss-making, and the government has not mandated an increase in most cases.



Another reason is that major engineering work is often done on a Sunday, so the timetable is quite often geared towards having long stretches of the railway reduced in capacity (eg down to one track from two, or two tracks from four or six), and so reducing the impact of such work on the number of trains that can be run.



In some new franchises a much better Sunday service is being mandated, eg the new South Western franchise. It remains to be seen whether this will be a common element among new franchises or just reserved for the ones seen as important by the government...



[1] http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html






share|improve this answer






















  • Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 12:58

















up vote
6
down vote













Trains in the UK are run by private rail franchises who make commercial judgments on when to schedule trains to run on particular lines.



This means that for a line like the Furness line that may have low passenger traffic numbers earlier in the morning on a Sunday the company has decided it is not economically viable to run trains earlier than 11.24.



Other busier lines such as ones into and out of London have trains that start at 05.45 for example.



The various rail franchise holders also have certain service commitments placed on the by the Government when they are awarded the franchises and these vary from franchise to franchise.






share|improve this answer




















  • I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 11:05











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
9
down vote













Since the question was "why", historically in the UK, driver's salaries were quite low, and British Rail ran the Sunday service on an overtime-only basis[1]. That is, only drivers who volunteered (for significant overtime pay) would drive trains on a Sunday. I believe this was similar for other grades of staff.



For this reason, British Rail would only timetable services where they could expect enough volunteers to make it viable to run it on a regular basis.



Nowadays, as many people know, drivers' salaries have gone up massively with privatisation, and in return some Train Operators in the UK have started making Sundays part of the official working week, and no longer voluntary. But the old timetables from the British Rail era often remain relatively unaltered, as many of these Sunday services are loss-making, and the government has not mandated an increase in most cases.



Another reason is that major engineering work is often done on a Sunday, so the timetable is quite often geared towards having long stretches of the railway reduced in capacity (eg down to one track from two, or two tracks from four or six), and so reducing the impact of such work on the number of trains that can be run.



In some new franchises a much better Sunday service is being mandated, eg the new South Western franchise. It remains to be seen whether this will be a common element among new franchises or just reserved for the ones seen as important by the government...



[1] http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html






share|improve this answer






















  • Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 12:58














up vote
9
down vote













Since the question was "why", historically in the UK, driver's salaries were quite low, and British Rail ran the Sunday service on an overtime-only basis[1]. That is, only drivers who volunteered (for significant overtime pay) would drive trains on a Sunday. I believe this was similar for other grades of staff.



For this reason, British Rail would only timetable services where they could expect enough volunteers to make it viable to run it on a regular basis.



Nowadays, as many people know, drivers' salaries have gone up massively with privatisation, and in return some Train Operators in the UK have started making Sundays part of the official working week, and no longer voluntary. But the old timetables from the British Rail era often remain relatively unaltered, as many of these Sunday services are loss-making, and the government has not mandated an increase in most cases.



Another reason is that major engineering work is often done on a Sunday, so the timetable is quite often geared towards having long stretches of the railway reduced in capacity (eg down to one track from two, or two tracks from four or six), and so reducing the impact of such work on the number of trains that can be run.



In some new franchises a much better Sunday service is being mandated, eg the new South Western franchise. It remains to be seen whether this will be a common element among new franchises or just reserved for the ones seen as important by the government...



[1] http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html






share|improve this answer






















  • Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 12:58












up vote
9
down vote










up vote
9
down vote









Since the question was "why", historically in the UK, driver's salaries were quite low, and British Rail ran the Sunday service on an overtime-only basis[1]. That is, only drivers who volunteered (for significant overtime pay) would drive trains on a Sunday. I believe this was similar for other grades of staff.



For this reason, British Rail would only timetable services where they could expect enough volunteers to make it viable to run it on a regular basis.



Nowadays, as many people know, drivers' salaries have gone up massively with privatisation, and in return some Train Operators in the UK have started making Sundays part of the official working week, and no longer voluntary. But the old timetables from the British Rail era often remain relatively unaltered, as many of these Sunday services are loss-making, and the government has not mandated an increase in most cases.



Another reason is that major engineering work is often done on a Sunday, so the timetable is quite often geared towards having long stretches of the railway reduced in capacity (eg down to one track from two, or two tracks from four or six), and so reducing the impact of such work on the number of trains that can be run.



In some new franchises a much better Sunday service is being mandated, eg the new South Western franchise. It remains to be seen whether this will be a common element among new franchises or just reserved for the ones seen as important by the government...



[1] http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html






share|improve this answer














Since the question was "why", historically in the UK, driver's salaries were quite low, and British Rail ran the Sunday service on an overtime-only basis[1]. That is, only drivers who volunteered (for significant overtime pay) would drive trains on a Sunday. I believe this was similar for other grades of staff.



For this reason, British Rail would only timetable services where they could expect enough volunteers to make it viable to run it on a regular basis.



Nowadays, as many people know, drivers' salaries have gone up massively with privatisation, and in return some Train Operators in the UK have started making Sundays part of the official working week, and no longer voluntary. But the old timetables from the British Rail era often remain relatively unaltered, as many of these Sunday services are loss-making, and the government has not mandated an increase in most cases.



Another reason is that major engineering work is often done on a Sunday, so the timetable is quite often geared towards having long stretches of the railway reduced in capacity (eg down to one track from two, or two tracks from four or six), and so reducing the impact of such work on the number of trains that can be run.



In some new franchises a much better Sunday service is being mandated, eg the new South Western franchise. It remains to be seen whether this will be a common element among new franchises or just reserved for the ones seen as important by the government...



[1] http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited May 16 '17 at 12:20

























answered May 16 '17 at 11:00









Muzer

3,9711828




3,9711828











  • Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 12:58
















  • Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 12:58















Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
– gerrit
May 16 '17 at 12:58




Hmm, that's some pretty good pay they are getting!
– gerrit
May 16 '17 at 12:58












up vote
6
down vote













Trains in the UK are run by private rail franchises who make commercial judgments on when to schedule trains to run on particular lines.



This means that for a line like the Furness line that may have low passenger traffic numbers earlier in the morning on a Sunday the company has decided it is not economically viable to run trains earlier than 11.24.



Other busier lines such as ones into and out of London have trains that start at 05.45 for example.



The various rail franchise holders also have certain service commitments placed on the by the Government when they are awarded the franchises and these vary from franchise to franchise.






share|improve this answer




















  • I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 11:05















up vote
6
down vote













Trains in the UK are run by private rail franchises who make commercial judgments on when to schedule trains to run on particular lines.



This means that for a line like the Furness line that may have low passenger traffic numbers earlier in the morning on a Sunday the company has decided it is not economically viable to run trains earlier than 11.24.



Other busier lines such as ones into and out of London have trains that start at 05.45 for example.



The various rail franchise holders also have certain service commitments placed on the by the Government when they are awarded the franchises and these vary from franchise to franchise.






share|improve this answer




















  • I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 11:05













up vote
6
down vote










up vote
6
down vote









Trains in the UK are run by private rail franchises who make commercial judgments on when to schedule trains to run on particular lines.



This means that for a line like the Furness line that may have low passenger traffic numbers earlier in the morning on a Sunday the company has decided it is not economically viable to run trains earlier than 11.24.



Other busier lines such as ones into and out of London have trains that start at 05.45 for example.



The various rail franchise holders also have certain service commitments placed on the by the Government when they are awarded the franchises and these vary from franchise to franchise.






share|improve this answer












Trains in the UK are run by private rail franchises who make commercial judgments on when to schedule trains to run on particular lines.



This means that for a line like the Furness line that may have low passenger traffic numbers earlier in the morning on a Sunday the company has decided it is not economically viable to run trains earlier than 11.24.



Other busier lines such as ones into and out of London have trains that start at 05.45 for example.



The various rail franchise holders also have certain service commitments placed on the by the Government when they are awarded the franchises and these vary from franchise to franchise.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered May 15 '17 at 23:27









Sarriesfan

86659




86659











  • I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 11:05

















  • I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
    – gerrit
    May 16 '17 at 11:05
















I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
– gerrit
May 16 '17 at 11:05





I find it hard to imagine it is not viable to run trains before 11:24 when the 11:24 is so crowded that passengers are left behind on the platform. It's rather evening (after dinner) services in the same region that seem to have pretty low occupancy. Therefore, I am not convinced this is the full story.
– gerrit
May 16 '17 at 11:05


















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