How should I politely address an email to two professors, one who holds a PhD and one who does not?
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
I am planning to request an override via e-mail for a class which is taught by two professors; one of them holds a PhD, while the other hold a master's; I have never met either of them. Usually my first line would be something along the lines of:
"Hello Dr. X, Dr. Y"
However, I feel like if I say
"Hello Dr. X, Mr. Y"
it would seem a little weird. I don't want to be over the top formal, but I still want to be polite. I've thought of using "Pro. X, Prof Y" but I'm not sure. How should I address them?
My location is the U.S.
etiquette email
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
I am planning to request an override via e-mail for a class which is taught by two professors; one of them holds a PhD, while the other hold a master's; I have never met either of them. Usually my first line would be something along the lines of:
"Hello Dr. X, Dr. Y"
However, I feel like if I say
"Hello Dr. X, Mr. Y"
it would seem a little weird. I don't want to be over the top formal, but I still want to be polite. I've thought of using "Pro. X, Prof Y" but I'm not sure. How should I address them?
My location is the U.S.
etiquette email
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
3
This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
1
@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
I am planning to request an override via e-mail for a class which is taught by two professors; one of them holds a PhD, while the other hold a master's; I have never met either of them. Usually my first line would be something along the lines of:
"Hello Dr. X, Dr. Y"
However, I feel like if I say
"Hello Dr. X, Mr. Y"
it would seem a little weird. I don't want to be over the top formal, but I still want to be polite. I've thought of using "Pro. X, Prof Y" but I'm not sure. How should I address them?
My location is the U.S.
etiquette email
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
I am planning to request an override via e-mail for a class which is taught by two professors; one of them holds a PhD, while the other hold a master's; I have never met either of them. Usually my first line would be something along the lines of:
"Hello Dr. X, Dr. Y"
However, I feel like if I say
"Hello Dr. X, Mr. Y"
it would seem a little weird. I don't want to be over the top formal, but I still want to be polite. I've thought of using "Pro. X, Prof Y" but I'm not sure. How should I address them?
My location is the U.S.
etiquette email
etiquette email
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
edited Aug 23 at 6:13
Allure
23.4k1371121
23.4k1371121
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
asked Aug 23 at 0:24
Ovi
20328
20328
3
This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
1
@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40
add a comment |
3
This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
1
@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40
3
3
This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
1
1
@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
41
down vote
accepted
Given that they're professors, you can just use "Prof."
Having said that, don't worry too much about salutation. I'm sure lots of people have received emails calling them "Dr." when they don't have PhDs, or "Prof" when they aren't professors. Heck, I've even seen emails calling someone "Mr." when they're actually female, or vice versa. We learn to ignore the honorific and concentrate on the email text.
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
18
down vote
In the US, it's perfectly fine to say "Hello (or dear) Professor X and Professor Y", or something like Dear Professors. Another widely-applicable option is to avoid names altogether -- my favorite is simply "Greetings."
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
If it is an option to send them separate emails, I would do that and address both as "Professor." As someone who holds a Ph.D. and worked in academia with colleagues who have a Ph.D. and others who don't, I would say that no one would be discomforted by being addressed as "Professor" even when they don't have a doctoral degree. Since they are teaching college level, it is appropriate to address them as such regardless of their degree.
PS: I am assuming this is for US colleges. Although I think the academic etiquette practiced in some other parts of the world might be similar, I can't speak for it informedly. And you get an "A" from me for caring to ask this question :)
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
41
down vote
accepted
Given that they're professors, you can just use "Prof."
Having said that, don't worry too much about salutation. I'm sure lots of people have received emails calling them "Dr." when they don't have PhDs, or "Prof" when they aren't professors. Heck, I've even seen emails calling someone "Mr." when they're actually female, or vice versa. We learn to ignore the honorific and concentrate on the email text.
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
41
down vote
accepted
Given that they're professors, you can just use "Prof."
Having said that, don't worry too much about salutation. I'm sure lots of people have received emails calling them "Dr." when they don't have PhDs, or "Prof" when they aren't professors. Heck, I've even seen emails calling someone "Mr." when they're actually female, or vice versa. We learn to ignore the honorific and concentrate on the email text.
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
41
down vote
accepted
up vote
41
down vote
accepted
Given that they're professors, you can just use "Prof."
Having said that, don't worry too much about salutation. I'm sure lots of people have received emails calling them "Dr." when they don't have PhDs, or "Prof" when they aren't professors. Heck, I've even seen emails calling someone "Mr." when they're actually female, or vice versa. We learn to ignore the honorific and concentrate on the email text.
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
Given that they're professors, you can just use "Prof."
Having said that, don't worry too much about salutation. I'm sure lots of people have received emails calling them "Dr." when they don't have PhDs, or "Prof" when they aren't professors. Heck, I've even seen emails calling someone "Mr." when they're actually female, or vice versa. We learn to ignore the honorific and concentrate on the email text.
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
edited Aug 23 at 12:18
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
Allure
23.4k1371121
23.4k1371121
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
|
show 7 more comments
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
42
42
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
@HRSE I'm not sure why you consider it to be wrong; "Prof." is the accepted abbreviated form.
– Tom Fenech
Aug 23 at 8:02
18
18
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
@HRSE On what basis are you insisting on "Professor Smith" but not "Doctor Smith" or "Missus Smith"?
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 9:44
6
6
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
@ebo So, again, you'd write "Dear Doctor Smith" and "Dear Missus Smith"? Because those sure as heck aren't "corner cases".
– David Richerby
Aug 23 at 21:26
5
5
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
@DavidRicherby You probably already know but Mrs is an abbreviation of "mistress". Missus is "corruption of mistress; as oral form of Mrs., from 1790; the missus "the wife" attested by 1833" (etymonline.com/word/missus#etymonline_v_32255). I wish those insisting on the full form luck addressing someone as Mistress Smith
– Au101
Aug 24 at 1:34
8
8
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
My goodness, I wrote in the answer not to worry about the salutation , and we're 10 comments into discussing details of the honorific ...
– Allure
Aug 24 at 8:33
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
18
down vote
In the US, it's perfectly fine to say "Hello (or dear) Professor X and Professor Y", or something like Dear Professors. Another widely-applicable option is to avoid names altogether -- my favorite is simply "Greetings."
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
In the US, it's perfectly fine to say "Hello (or dear) Professor X and Professor Y", or something like Dear Professors. Another widely-applicable option is to avoid names altogether -- my favorite is simply "Greetings."
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
up vote
18
down vote
In the US, it's perfectly fine to say "Hello (or dear) Professor X and Professor Y", or something like Dear Professors. Another widely-applicable option is to avoid names altogether -- my favorite is simply "Greetings."
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
In the US, it's perfectly fine to say "Hello (or dear) Professor X and Professor Y", or something like Dear Professors. Another widely-applicable option is to avoid names altogether -- my favorite is simply "Greetings."
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
answered Aug 23 at 0:34
cag51
9,55142245
9,55142245
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
add a comment |
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
26
26
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
"Greetings" in an email puts me in mind of a nice Nigerian man looking to offload some millions of dollars...
– awjlogan
Aug 23 at 8:11
14
14
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
@awjlogan "Greetings, dear kind sirs and madams. I am the Prince of Azbanath, of the Kingdom of Saluqua. It is your privilege and opportunity to obtain a portion of my immense wealth. I am currently stranded in the Kingdom of Oglbard, but if you wire me £1,000,000 I can buy my passage to freedom and reward you handsomely. I await your reply with anticipation."
– Vladhagen
Aug 23 at 14:50
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
If it is an option to send them separate emails, I would do that and address both as "Professor." As someone who holds a Ph.D. and worked in academia with colleagues who have a Ph.D. and others who don't, I would say that no one would be discomforted by being addressed as "Professor" even when they don't have a doctoral degree. Since they are teaching college level, it is appropriate to address them as such regardless of their degree.
PS: I am assuming this is for US colleges. Although I think the academic etiquette practiced in some other parts of the world might be similar, I can't speak for it informedly. And you get an "A" from me for caring to ask this question :)
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
If it is an option to send them separate emails, I would do that and address both as "Professor." As someone who holds a Ph.D. and worked in academia with colleagues who have a Ph.D. and others who don't, I would say that no one would be discomforted by being addressed as "Professor" even when they don't have a doctoral degree. Since they are teaching college level, it is appropriate to address them as such regardless of their degree.
PS: I am assuming this is for US colleges. Although I think the academic etiquette practiced in some other parts of the world might be similar, I can't speak for it informedly. And you get an "A" from me for caring to ask this question :)
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
If it is an option to send them separate emails, I would do that and address both as "Professor." As someone who holds a Ph.D. and worked in academia with colleagues who have a Ph.D. and others who don't, I would say that no one would be discomforted by being addressed as "Professor" even when they don't have a doctoral degree. Since they are teaching college level, it is appropriate to address them as such regardless of their degree.
PS: I am assuming this is for US colleges. Although I think the academic etiquette practiced in some other parts of the world might be similar, I can't speak for it informedly. And you get an "A" from me for caring to ask this question :)
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
If it is an option to send them separate emails, I would do that and address both as "Professor." As someone who holds a Ph.D. and worked in academia with colleagues who have a Ph.D. and others who don't, I would say that no one would be discomforted by being addressed as "Professor" even when they don't have a doctoral degree. Since they are teaching college level, it is appropriate to address them as such regardless of their degree.
PS: I am assuming this is for US colleges. Although I think the academic etiquette practiced in some other parts of the world might be similar, I can't speak for it informedly. And you get an "A" from me for caring to ask this question :)
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
answered Aug 23 at 14:28
coder
662
662
add a comment |
add a comment |
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This might depend on where you are. Some countries are more formal in general than others. You might even have a problem with 'professor' in some places.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:31
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@Buffy My location is the U.S., I've just added that to the question; in general the professors at my school are not extremely formal.
– Ovi
Aug 23 at 0:32
If one is an assistant to the other, you could just address the one, actually. But the answers already given are fine.
– Buffy
Aug 23 at 0:37
I've never found it particularly rude to simply dispense with the greeting line and get right to the message. E-mails have more structure in common with memos (what with the various headings like To, From, Subject, etc) than letters.
– chepner
Aug 23 at 15:40