How do I fix the speed of a generator?









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If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed (rpm). But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this speed? It seems to me that the mechanical forces that rotate the generator somehow has to balance to achieve this. How exactly is this done?










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  • 4




    With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
    – Dave Tweed
    Nov 8 at 13:35






  • 7




    I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 13:41






  • 2




    Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
    – DaveInCaz
    Nov 8 at 17:58










  • The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
    – immibis
    Nov 9 at 0:58






  • 1




    This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Nov 9 at 8:25















up vote
12
down vote

favorite
1












If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed (rpm). But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this speed? It seems to me that the mechanical forces that rotate the generator somehow has to balance to achieve this. How exactly is this done?










share|improve this question

















  • 4




    With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
    – Dave Tweed
    Nov 8 at 13:35






  • 7




    I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 13:41






  • 2




    Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
    – DaveInCaz
    Nov 8 at 17:58










  • The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
    – immibis
    Nov 9 at 0:58






  • 1




    This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Nov 9 at 8:25













up vote
12
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
12
down vote

favorite
1






1





If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed (rpm). But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this speed? It seems to me that the mechanical forces that rotate the generator somehow has to balance to achieve this. How exactly is this done?










share|improve this question













If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed (rpm). But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this speed? It seems to me that the mechanical forces that rotate the generator somehow has to balance to achieve this. How exactly is this done?







electric-machine






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share|improve this question










asked Nov 8 at 13:30









praveen kr

1715




1715







  • 4




    With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
    – Dave Tweed
    Nov 8 at 13:35






  • 7




    I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 13:41






  • 2




    Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
    – DaveInCaz
    Nov 8 at 17:58










  • The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
    – immibis
    Nov 9 at 0:58






  • 1




    This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Nov 9 at 8:25













  • 4




    With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
    – Dave Tweed
    Nov 8 at 13:35






  • 7




    I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 13:41






  • 2




    Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
    – DaveInCaz
    Nov 8 at 17:58










  • The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
    – immibis
    Nov 9 at 0:58






  • 1




    This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Nov 9 at 8:25








4




4




With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
– Dave Tweed
Nov 8 at 13:35




With some sort of throttle on the prime mover, adjusted so that power in equals power out (plus internal losses).
– Dave Tweed
Nov 8 at 13:35




7




7




I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
– Felthry
Nov 8 at 13:41




I'm pretty sure that large generators attached to mains are forced into synchronicity by the influence of all the other things attached to mains; if the generator slows down any, there would be a motor torque applied by the mains power pulling it back towards synchronous speed, and likewise if it speeds up. This is a problem in itself rather than a solution, though, because if your generator starts running as a motor it's likely to tear itself or things attached to its shaft apart; it's not made to operate like that.
– Felthry
Nov 8 at 13:41




2




2




Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
– DaveInCaz
Nov 8 at 17:58




Wasn't the flyball governor on Watt's steam engine essentially doing this through mechanical feedback?
– DaveInCaz
Nov 8 at 17:58












The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
– immibis
Nov 9 at 0:58




The faster the generator tries to spin, the more current you could draw from it to make it slow back down. That requires a variable load of course.
– immibis
Nov 9 at 0:58




1




1




This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
– Dmitry Grigoryev
Nov 9 at 8:25





This is awfully broad for a question. In sum, your options are to either vary the incoming power, vary the load, or forget about frequency regulation altogether and do something else (use a DC load, a load which doesn't care about frequency, or use a frequency transformer). I don't think it's possible to reasonably pick an option given that you disclosed zero information about your system.
– Dmitry Grigoryev
Nov 9 at 8:25











5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
18
down vote



accepted










Electrically



Some systems do this electrically. The generator either generates DC, or the variable-frequency AC is rectified to make DC, and then an inverter makes the desired AC frequency. Common on more modern small wind turbines.



Mechanically



Other systems are mechanically controlled to get the desired frequency. The mechanism used would be called a governor. Most simple mechanical governors are not very accurate, so this would not be good enough for a grid connected device. It is also possible to make more accurate governors which work mechanically in a similar way to the paragraph below, these are commonly used on internal combustion engines.



With Feedback



Another approach, and probably the most common is to have some form of feedback. A microcontroller monitors the frequency being generated, and adjusts the mechanical system via some form of servo to get the right frequency. For example, it could open and close a sluice gate to adjust the water flow through a turbine. A more complicated system could adjust both a sluice gate and the turbine blades to keep the correct frequency while also varying the output power.



Grid Synchronous operation



In some cases, it might not be necessary at all. If you have a small wind turbine, connected to the mains grid near a coal power station, you could just hook it up and forget about it. The huge turbines in the power station will stabilise the grid frequency, and fix the rotation speed of the wind turbine. If the wind blows harder, you'll just get more current, and a slight power factor shift. Note that as more and more wind turbines get added, the folks who run the power station will get less and less happy about this, so the grid operator will eventually ban it.






share|improve this answer


















  • 5




    It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 13:45










  • @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
    – Jack B
    Nov 8 at 13:47






  • 1




    I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
    – Felthry
    Nov 8 at 14:11










  • Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
    – mbrig
    Nov 8 at 17:07










  • Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
    – Hanky Panky
    Nov 9 at 8:16


















up vote
10
down vote














If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to
make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed
(rpm).




No, that is not necessarily true. A lot of wind generators use a doubly fed induction generator (DFIG) and that can regulate frequency by controlling the rotor winding: -



enter image description here



They can convert power at one frequency to another frequency i.e. they can produce 50/60 Hz even though the rotor may be running too slowly. This is done by injection of an AC current into the rotor coils. The control system that acheives this may also be able to alter pitch angle of the turbine as another means of increasing or decreasing mechanical rotation speed.



For more information please read this EE answer.




But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this
speed?




There can be situations when there is too much rotational speed and although the DFIG can deal with this it is best to have a combined approach such as the pitch angle control shown in the above picture.



However, the inevitable bottom line is that if you have a plentiful source of mechanical energy and very little load demand at that moment, then you have to un-hook the generator from the grid. If you don't "have" a grid, then you have to have a back-up supply that can supply the low power demand and this usually means a diesel generator or solar power via an inverter.






share|improve this answer





























    up vote
    3
    down vote













    That is what a governor is for.



    The mechanical version is a device that will use centrifugal force or a blower to actuate the throttle/intake to slow down the engine when the speed climbs too much.



    You can make it electronic with an RPM sensor and a electronically controlled throttle/intake.






    share|improve this answer
















    • 1




      Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
      – rackandboneman
      Nov 8 at 20:12






    • 2




      @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
      – Harper
      Nov 8 at 21:23






    • 1




      @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
      – ratchet freak
      Nov 9 at 1:27


















    up vote
    3
    down vote













    In my (limited) experience of generator design, you have to look at multiple factors:



    • Speed of mechanical input (turbine, wheel etc)


    • Power of mechanical input


    • Output voltage


    • Output current


    • Output power (which depends on voltage and current, but you usually want to maximise this, at a peak power point)


    In many cases what you want to maintain is a constant voltage output, which will vary with the electrical load; higher current would make the output drop.



    In your set up, you only care about the speed of the shaft (for whatever reason that is). There are two ways to do this: control input power or control output power.



    If you know that your mechanical power will always be more than the output power, you could use a governor or similar, which will limit the shaft power to keep the speed constant. This will control the input power in a simple manner.



    If you can't guarantee that your mechanical input is higher, you'll need to limit your output power in some way. I have done it where we controlled the output current via a PID feedback controller to keep the shaft speed at fixed values. But that was in a DC system, where we had a large battery to push the current into during high supply times, and draw from during lower supply times.






    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      This isn't the way it is done, but it's a way it could be done: vary the load in order to modulate the speed.



      You can imagine a (potentially very large) auxiliary load bank in addition to the normal load, with the input power source sized so that it will provide at least enough power for the normal load under all conditions. This isn't completely unthinkable for hydro setups, since the head is the usual determinant. Then, as the load and the input vary, the auxilliary bank is controlled so that the total demand on the generator produces mechanical loading on the input which maintains the output frequency at the desired point.



      And no, this isn't a serious suggestion, but it could be done.






      share|improve this answer




















      • So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
        – amI
        Nov 8 at 19:01










      • @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
        – davidcary
        Nov 8 at 23:56










      • Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
        – amI
        Nov 9 at 6:13










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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      18
      down vote



      accepted










      Electrically



      Some systems do this electrically. The generator either generates DC, or the variable-frequency AC is rectified to make DC, and then an inverter makes the desired AC frequency. Common on more modern small wind turbines.



      Mechanically



      Other systems are mechanically controlled to get the desired frequency. The mechanism used would be called a governor. Most simple mechanical governors are not very accurate, so this would not be good enough for a grid connected device. It is also possible to make more accurate governors which work mechanically in a similar way to the paragraph below, these are commonly used on internal combustion engines.



      With Feedback



      Another approach, and probably the most common is to have some form of feedback. A microcontroller monitors the frequency being generated, and adjusts the mechanical system via some form of servo to get the right frequency. For example, it could open and close a sluice gate to adjust the water flow through a turbine. A more complicated system could adjust both a sluice gate and the turbine blades to keep the correct frequency while also varying the output power.



      Grid Synchronous operation



      In some cases, it might not be necessary at all. If you have a small wind turbine, connected to the mains grid near a coal power station, you could just hook it up and forget about it. The huge turbines in the power station will stabilise the grid frequency, and fix the rotation speed of the wind turbine. If the wind blows harder, you'll just get more current, and a slight power factor shift. Note that as more and more wind turbines get added, the folks who run the power station will get less and less happy about this, so the grid operator will eventually ban it.






      share|improve this answer


















      • 5




        It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 13:45










      • @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
        – Jack B
        Nov 8 at 13:47






      • 1




        I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 14:11










      • Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
        – mbrig
        Nov 8 at 17:07










      • Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
        – Hanky Panky
        Nov 9 at 8:16















      up vote
      18
      down vote



      accepted










      Electrically



      Some systems do this electrically. The generator either generates DC, or the variable-frequency AC is rectified to make DC, and then an inverter makes the desired AC frequency. Common on more modern small wind turbines.



      Mechanically



      Other systems are mechanically controlled to get the desired frequency. The mechanism used would be called a governor. Most simple mechanical governors are not very accurate, so this would not be good enough for a grid connected device. It is also possible to make more accurate governors which work mechanically in a similar way to the paragraph below, these are commonly used on internal combustion engines.



      With Feedback



      Another approach, and probably the most common is to have some form of feedback. A microcontroller monitors the frequency being generated, and adjusts the mechanical system via some form of servo to get the right frequency. For example, it could open and close a sluice gate to adjust the water flow through a turbine. A more complicated system could adjust both a sluice gate and the turbine blades to keep the correct frequency while also varying the output power.



      Grid Synchronous operation



      In some cases, it might not be necessary at all. If you have a small wind turbine, connected to the mains grid near a coal power station, you could just hook it up and forget about it. The huge turbines in the power station will stabilise the grid frequency, and fix the rotation speed of the wind turbine. If the wind blows harder, you'll just get more current, and a slight power factor shift. Note that as more and more wind turbines get added, the folks who run the power station will get less and less happy about this, so the grid operator will eventually ban it.






      share|improve this answer


















      • 5




        It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 13:45










      • @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
        – Jack B
        Nov 8 at 13:47






      • 1




        I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 14:11










      • Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
        – mbrig
        Nov 8 at 17:07










      • Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
        – Hanky Panky
        Nov 9 at 8:16













      up vote
      18
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      18
      down vote



      accepted






      Electrically



      Some systems do this electrically. The generator either generates DC, or the variable-frequency AC is rectified to make DC, and then an inverter makes the desired AC frequency. Common on more modern small wind turbines.



      Mechanically



      Other systems are mechanically controlled to get the desired frequency. The mechanism used would be called a governor. Most simple mechanical governors are not very accurate, so this would not be good enough for a grid connected device. It is also possible to make more accurate governors which work mechanically in a similar way to the paragraph below, these are commonly used on internal combustion engines.



      With Feedback



      Another approach, and probably the most common is to have some form of feedback. A microcontroller monitors the frequency being generated, and adjusts the mechanical system via some form of servo to get the right frequency. For example, it could open and close a sluice gate to adjust the water flow through a turbine. A more complicated system could adjust both a sluice gate and the turbine blades to keep the correct frequency while also varying the output power.



      Grid Synchronous operation



      In some cases, it might not be necessary at all. If you have a small wind turbine, connected to the mains grid near a coal power station, you could just hook it up and forget about it. The huge turbines in the power station will stabilise the grid frequency, and fix the rotation speed of the wind turbine. If the wind blows harder, you'll just get more current, and a slight power factor shift. Note that as more and more wind turbines get added, the folks who run the power station will get less and less happy about this, so the grid operator will eventually ban it.






      share|improve this answer














      Electrically



      Some systems do this electrically. The generator either generates DC, or the variable-frequency AC is rectified to make DC, and then an inverter makes the desired AC frequency. Common on more modern small wind turbines.



      Mechanically



      Other systems are mechanically controlled to get the desired frequency. The mechanism used would be called a governor. Most simple mechanical governors are not very accurate, so this would not be good enough for a grid connected device. It is also possible to make more accurate governors which work mechanically in a similar way to the paragraph below, these are commonly used on internal combustion engines.



      With Feedback



      Another approach, and probably the most common is to have some form of feedback. A microcontroller monitors the frequency being generated, and adjusts the mechanical system via some form of servo to get the right frequency. For example, it could open and close a sluice gate to adjust the water flow through a turbine. A more complicated system could adjust both a sluice gate and the turbine blades to keep the correct frequency while also varying the output power.



      Grid Synchronous operation



      In some cases, it might not be necessary at all. If you have a small wind turbine, connected to the mains grid near a coal power station, you could just hook it up and forget about it. The huge turbines in the power station will stabilise the grid frequency, and fix the rotation speed of the wind turbine. If the wind blows harder, you'll just get more current, and a slight power factor shift. Note that as more and more wind turbines get added, the folks who run the power station will get less and less happy about this, so the grid operator will eventually ban it.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Nov 11 at 20:54

























      answered Nov 8 at 13:41









      Jack B

      9,92112137




      9,92112137







      • 5




        It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 13:45










      • @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
        – Jack B
        Nov 8 at 13:47






      • 1




        I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 14:11










      • Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
        – mbrig
        Nov 8 at 17:07










      • Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
        – Hanky Panky
        Nov 9 at 8:16













      • 5




        It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 13:45










      • @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
        – Jack B
        Nov 8 at 13:47






      • 1




        I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
        – Felthry
        Nov 8 at 14:11










      • Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
        – mbrig
        Nov 8 at 17:07










      • Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
        – Hanky Panky
        Nov 9 at 8:16








      5




      5




      It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
      – Felthry
      Nov 8 at 13:45




      It's probably worth mentioning doubly-fed induction machines here. They use an induction machine simultaneously as both a generator and a rotary converter to keep the output frequency constant with varying input frequencies.
      – Felthry
      Nov 8 at 13:45












      @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
      – Jack B
      Nov 8 at 13:47




      @Felthry I didn't include them because I'm not sufficiently familiar with them. Feel free to propose an edit though.
      – Jack B
      Nov 8 at 13:47




      1




      1




      I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
      – Felthry
      Nov 8 at 14:11




      I would, but Andy's answer already takes care of that.
      – Felthry
      Nov 8 at 14:11












      Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
      – mbrig
      Nov 8 at 17:07




      Perhaps worth noting that in practice, multiple/many of these will be happening at the same time. Grid upsets will initially cause weird power flows/factors, feedback systems will respond after some delay, coarse level governors will apply/remove brakes if needed.
      – mbrig
      Nov 8 at 17:07












      Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
      – Hanky Panky
      Nov 9 at 8:16





      Small typo: inverted (inverter) makes the desired AC frequency
      – Hanky Panky
      Nov 9 at 8:16













      up vote
      10
      down vote














      If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to
      make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed
      (rpm).




      No, that is not necessarily true. A lot of wind generators use a doubly fed induction generator (DFIG) and that can regulate frequency by controlling the rotor winding: -



      enter image description here



      They can convert power at one frequency to another frequency i.e. they can produce 50/60 Hz even though the rotor may be running too slowly. This is done by injection of an AC current into the rotor coils. The control system that acheives this may also be able to alter pitch angle of the turbine as another means of increasing or decreasing mechanical rotation speed.



      For more information please read this EE answer.




      But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this
      speed?




      There can be situations when there is too much rotational speed and although the DFIG can deal with this it is best to have a combined approach such as the pitch angle control shown in the above picture.



      However, the inevitable bottom line is that if you have a plentiful source of mechanical energy and very little load demand at that moment, then you have to un-hook the generator from the grid. If you don't "have" a grid, then you have to have a back-up supply that can supply the low power demand and this usually means a diesel generator or solar power via an inverter.






      share|improve this answer


























        up vote
        10
        down vote














        If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to
        make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed
        (rpm).




        No, that is not necessarily true. A lot of wind generators use a doubly fed induction generator (DFIG) and that can regulate frequency by controlling the rotor winding: -



        enter image description here



        They can convert power at one frequency to another frequency i.e. they can produce 50/60 Hz even though the rotor may be running too slowly. This is done by injection of an AC current into the rotor coils. The control system that acheives this may also be able to alter pitch angle of the turbine as another means of increasing or decreasing mechanical rotation speed.



        For more information please read this EE answer.




        But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this
        speed?




        There can be situations when there is too much rotational speed and although the DFIG can deal with this it is best to have a combined approach such as the pitch angle control shown in the above picture.



        However, the inevitable bottom line is that if you have a plentiful source of mechanical energy and very little load demand at that moment, then you have to un-hook the generator from the grid. If you don't "have" a grid, then you have to have a back-up supply that can supply the low power demand and this usually means a diesel generator or solar power via an inverter.






        share|improve this answer
























          up vote
          10
          down vote










          up vote
          10
          down vote










          If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to
          make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed
          (rpm).




          No, that is not necessarily true. A lot of wind generators use a doubly fed induction generator (DFIG) and that can regulate frequency by controlling the rotor winding: -



          enter image description here



          They can convert power at one frequency to another frequency i.e. they can produce 50/60 Hz even though the rotor may be running too slowly. This is done by injection of an AC current into the rotor coils. The control system that acheives this may also be able to alter pitch angle of the turbine as another means of increasing or decreasing mechanical rotation speed.



          For more information please read this EE answer.




          But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this
          speed?




          There can be situations when there is too much rotational speed and although the DFIG can deal with this it is best to have a combined approach such as the pitch angle control shown in the above picture.



          However, the inevitable bottom line is that if you have a plentiful source of mechanical energy and very little load demand at that moment, then you have to un-hook the generator from the grid. If you don't "have" a grid, then you have to have a back-up supply that can supply the low power demand and this usually means a diesel generator or solar power via an inverter.






          share|improve this answer















          If I need to generate power at a specified frequency, then I need to
          make sure that the rotor of the generator rotates at a specified speed
          (rpm).




          No, that is not necessarily true. A lot of wind generators use a doubly fed induction generator (DFIG) and that can regulate frequency by controlling the rotor winding: -



          enter image description here



          They can convert power at one frequency to another frequency i.e. they can produce 50/60 Hz even though the rotor may be running too slowly. This is done by injection of an AC current into the rotor coils. The control system that acheives this may also be able to alter pitch angle of the turbine as another means of increasing or decreasing mechanical rotation speed.



          For more information please read this EE answer.




          But when I am rotating it with steam or water how do I control this
          speed?




          There can be situations when there is too much rotational speed and although the DFIG can deal with this it is best to have a combined approach such as the pitch angle control shown in the above picture.



          However, the inevitable bottom line is that if you have a plentiful source of mechanical energy and very little load demand at that moment, then you have to un-hook the generator from the grid. If you don't "have" a grid, then you have to have a back-up supply that can supply the low power demand and this usually means a diesel generator or solar power via an inverter.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Nov 8 at 18:35

























          answered Nov 8 at 13:48









          Andy aka

          234k10173399




          234k10173399




















              up vote
              3
              down vote













              That is what a governor is for.



              The mechanical version is a device that will use centrifugal force or a blower to actuate the throttle/intake to slow down the engine when the speed climbs too much.



              You can make it electronic with an RPM sensor and a electronically controlled throttle/intake.






              share|improve this answer
















              • 1




                Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
                – rackandboneman
                Nov 8 at 20:12






              • 2




                @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
                – Harper
                Nov 8 at 21:23






              • 1




                @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
                – ratchet freak
                Nov 9 at 1:27















              up vote
              3
              down vote













              That is what a governor is for.



              The mechanical version is a device that will use centrifugal force or a blower to actuate the throttle/intake to slow down the engine when the speed climbs too much.



              You can make it electronic with an RPM sensor and a electronically controlled throttle/intake.






              share|improve this answer
















              • 1




                Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
                – rackandboneman
                Nov 8 at 20:12






              • 2




                @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
                – Harper
                Nov 8 at 21:23






              • 1




                @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
                – ratchet freak
                Nov 9 at 1:27













              up vote
              3
              down vote










              up vote
              3
              down vote









              That is what a governor is for.



              The mechanical version is a device that will use centrifugal force or a blower to actuate the throttle/intake to slow down the engine when the speed climbs too much.



              You can make it electronic with an RPM sensor and a electronically controlled throttle/intake.






              share|improve this answer












              That is what a governor is for.



              The mechanical version is a device that will use centrifugal force or a blower to actuate the throttle/intake to slow down the engine when the speed climbs too much.



              You can make it electronic with an RPM sensor and a electronically controlled throttle/intake.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Nov 8 at 13:34









              ratchet freak

              2,5301011




              2,5301011







              • 1




                Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
                – rackandboneman
                Nov 8 at 20:12






              • 2




                @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
                – Harper
                Nov 8 at 21:23






              • 1




                @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
                – ratchet freak
                Nov 9 at 1:27













              • 1




                Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
                – rackandboneman
                Nov 8 at 20:12






              • 2




                @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
                – Harper
                Nov 8 at 21:23






              • 1




                @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
                – ratchet freak
                Nov 9 at 1:27








              1




              1




              Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
              – rackandboneman
              Nov 8 at 20:12




              Mechanically throttling the input with a brake generates heat and wastes input power....
              – rackandboneman
              Nov 8 at 20:12




              2




              2




              @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
              – Harper
              Nov 8 at 21:23




              @rackandboneman he isn't talking about that, and that's not how governors work.
              – Harper
              Nov 8 at 21:23




              1




              1




              @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
              – ratchet freak
              Nov 9 at 1:27





              @Harper to be fair some governors do work by using braking however for generators you would be adjusting the mechanical energy generated instead of wasting it.
              – ratchet freak
              Nov 9 at 1:27











              up vote
              3
              down vote













              In my (limited) experience of generator design, you have to look at multiple factors:



              • Speed of mechanical input (turbine, wheel etc)


              • Power of mechanical input


              • Output voltage


              • Output current


              • Output power (which depends on voltage and current, but you usually want to maximise this, at a peak power point)


              In many cases what you want to maintain is a constant voltage output, which will vary with the electrical load; higher current would make the output drop.



              In your set up, you only care about the speed of the shaft (for whatever reason that is). There are two ways to do this: control input power or control output power.



              If you know that your mechanical power will always be more than the output power, you could use a governor or similar, which will limit the shaft power to keep the speed constant. This will control the input power in a simple manner.



              If you can't guarantee that your mechanical input is higher, you'll need to limit your output power in some way. I have done it where we controlled the output current via a PID feedback controller to keep the shaft speed at fixed values. But that was in a DC system, where we had a large battery to push the current into during high supply times, and draw from during lower supply times.






              share|improve this answer
























                up vote
                3
                down vote













                In my (limited) experience of generator design, you have to look at multiple factors:



                • Speed of mechanical input (turbine, wheel etc)


                • Power of mechanical input


                • Output voltage


                • Output current


                • Output power (which depends on voltage and current, but you usually want to maximise this, at a peak power point)


                In many cases what you want to maintain is a constant voltage output, which will vary with the electrical load; higher current would make the output drop.



                In your set up, you only care about the speed of the shaft (for whatever reason that is). There are two ways to do this: control input power or control output power.



                If you know that your mechanical power will always be more than the output power, you could use a governor or similar, which will limit the shaft power to keep the speed constant. This will control the input power in a simple manner.



                If you can't guarantee that your mechanical input is higher, you'll need to limit your output power in some way. I have done it where we controlled the output current via a PID feedback controller to keep the shaft speed at fixed values. But that was in a DC system, where we had a large battery to push the current into during high supply times, and draw from during lower supply times.






                share|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote









                  In my (limited) experience of generator design, you have to look at multiple factors:



                  • Speed of mechanical input (turbine, wheel etc)


                  • Power of mechanical input


                  • Output voltage


                  • Output current


                  • Output power (which depends on voltage and current, but you usually want to maximise this, at a peak power point)


                  In many cases what you want to maintain is a constant voltage output, which will vary with the electrical load; higher current would make the output drop.



                  In your set up, you only care about the speed of the shaft (for whatever reason that is). There are two ways to do this: control input power or control output power.



                  If you know that your mechanical power will always be more than the output power, you could use a governor or similar, which will limit the shaft power to keep the speed constant. This will control the input power in a simple manner.



                  If you can't guarantee that your mechanical input is higher, you'll need to limit your output power in some way. I have done it where we controlled the output current via a PID feedback controller to keep the shaft speed at fixed values. But that was in a DC system, where we had a large battery to push the current into during high supply times, and draw from during lower supply times.






                  share|improve this answer












                  In my (limited) experience of generator design, you have to look at multiple factors:



                  • Speed of mechanical input (turbine, wheel etc)


                  • Power of mechanical input


                  • Output voltage


                  • Output current


                  • Output power (which depends on voltage and current, but you usually want to maximise this, at a peak power point)


                  In many cases what you want to maintain is a constant voltage output, which will vary with the electrical load; higher current would make the output drop.



                  In your set up, you only care about the speed of the shaft (for whatever reason that is). There are two ways to do this: control input power or control output power.



                  If you know that your mechanical power will always be more than the output power, you could use a governor or similar, which will limit the shaft power to keep the speed constant. This will control the input power in a simple manner.



                  If you can't guarantee that your mechanical input is higher, you'll need to limit your output power in some way. I have done it where we controlled the output current via a PID feedback controller to keep the shaft speed at fixed values. But that was in a DC system, where we had a large battery to push the current into during high supply times, and draw from during lower supply times.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 8 at 13:47









                  Puffafish

                  855111




                  855111




















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      This isn't the way it is done, but it's a way it could be done: vary the load in order to modulate the speed.



                      You can imagine a (potentially very large) auxiliary load bank in addition to the normal load, with the input power source sized so that it will provide at least enough power for the normal load under all conditions. This isn't completely unthinkable for hydro setups, since the head is the usual determinant. Then, as the load and the input vary, the auxilliary bank is controlled so that the total demand on the generator produces mechanical loading on the input which maintains the output frequency at the desired point.



                      And no, this isn't a serious suggestion, but it could be done.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                        – amI
                        Nov 8 at 19:01










                      • @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                        – davidcary
                        Nov 8 at 23:56










                      • Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                        – amI
                        Nov 9 at 6:13














                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      This isn't the way it is done, but it's a way it could be done: vary the load in order to modulate the speed.



                      You can imagine a (potentially very large) auxiliary load bank in addition to the normal load, with the input power source sized so that it will provide at least enough power for the normal load under all conditions. This isn't completely unthinkable for hydro setups, since the head is the usual determinant. Then, as the load and the input vary, the auxilliary bank is controlled so that the total demand on the generator produces mechanical loading on the input which maintains the output frequency at the desired point.



                      And no, this isn't a serious suggestion, but it could be done.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                        – amI
                        Nov 8 at 19:01










                      • @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                        – davidcary
                        Nov 8 at 23:56










                      • Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                        – amI
                        Nov 9 at 6:13












                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote









                      This isn't the way it is done, but it's a way it could be done: vary the load in order to modulate the speed.



                      You can imagine a (potentially very large) auxiliary load bank in addition to the normal load, with the input power source sized so that it will provide at least enough power for the normal load under all conditions. This isn't completely unthinkable for hydro setups, since the head is the usual determinant. Then, as the load and the input vary, the auxilliary bank is controlled so that the total demand on the generator produces mechanical loading on the input which maintains the output frequency at the desired point.



                      And no, this isn't a serious suggestion, but it could be done.






                      share|improve this answer












                      This isn't the way it is done, but it's a way it could be done: vary the load in order to modulate the speed.



                      You can imagine a (potentially very large) auxiliary load bank in addition to the normal load, with the input power source sized so that it will provide at least enough power for the normal load under all conditions. This isn't completely unthinkable for hydro setups, since the head is the usual determinant. Then, as the load and the input vary, the auxilliary bank is controlled so that the total demand on the generator produces mechanical loading on the input which maintains the output frequency at the desired point.



                      And no, this isn't a serious suggestion, but it could be done.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Nov 8 at 14:46









                      WhatRoughBeast

                      48.3k22873




                      48.3k22873











                      • So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                        – amI
                        Nov 8 at 19:01










                      • @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                        – davidcary
                        Nov 8 at 23:56










                      • Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                        – amI
                        Nov 9 at 6:13
















                      • So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                        – amI
                        Nov 8 at 19:01










                      • @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                        – davidcary
                        Nov 8 at 23:56










                      • Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                        – amI
                        Nov 9 at 6:13















                      So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                      – amI
                      Nov 8 at 19:01




                      So the auxiliary bank could be used to pump some water back uphill? Sounds stupid, but isn't that the same as charging a battery?
                      – amI
                      Nov 8 at 19:01












                      @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                      – davidcary
                      Nov 8 at 23:56




                      @amI: It's similar, but pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a smart choice because it costs far less than the batteries that would be required to store the same amount of energy.
                      – davidcary
                      Nov 8 at 23:56












                      Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                      – amI
                      Nov 9 at 6:13




                      Storage is good, but you would never power a battery charger off the battery itself (pump hydro using hydro power). I guess the aux load would need to be a 'controlled' customer (that is willing to accept <100% duty).
                      – amI
                      Nov 9 at 6:13

















                       

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